Listen to Victoria and Peter’s Conversation Here:
Navigating the complex regulatory landscape between China and the U.S., Peter Huntsman, CEO of Huntsman Corporation, sheds light on the critical challenges and opportunities within the global chemical industry. Host Victoria Meyer sits down with Peter to discuss the fast-paced approval processes in China compared to the stringent regulations in the U.S., the long-term perspective needed for investments in this industry, and the impact of public detachment from the industrial origins of chemical products.
Peter also delves into the intricacies of operating in the European market, influenced by anti-manufacturing policies and geopolitical tensions, and discusses the necessary transformation strategies Huntsman Corporation has adopted over the past two decades. From the Huntsman family legacy to the pivotal role of smart carbon utilization, this episode uncovers the resilience and adaptability required to thrive in the ever-evolving chemical industry.
Join us to learn more about these topics this week:
- Origin of Huntsman: From selling clam shell containers to supplying airplanes with materials
- The role of chemicals in the energy transition
- Regulatory challenges: chemical innovation approval delays
- Administration uncertainty, regulatory risk, and public perception of the chemical industry
- European regulation and impact
- Business Transformation: growing, selling, and changing businesses and aligning your organization
- Characteristics attributed to successful leadership
Killer Quote: “Transformation isn’t just a strategy; it’s a necessity. The decisions we make today, in an ever-evolving regulatory landscape, will resonate for decades. It’s not about chasing carbon neutrality—it’s about being smart with carbon utilization and continually innovating for a smarter, more sustainable future.“ — Peter Huntsman, CEO of Huntsman Corporation
Other links:
Download: 10 Leadership Lessons for Chemical Executives
Download: 7 Trends Shaping the Future of the Chemical Industry
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Watch Victoria’s Interview with Peter Huntsman on Youtube Here:
Peter Huntsman Discusses Innovation, Leadership, and Regulatory Environments In Chemicals
Today, I’m speaking with Peter Huntsman, who is the CEO of Huntsman Corporation, here at the Marsh North American Energy and Power Symposium. And Peter just gave a very lively keynote, which brought some contrary views, but also some necessary views into the industry.
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So I’m really looking forward to this conversation, and it’s one that I’ve been hoping to have for a long time. Peter, thank you for joining me on The Chemical Show.
It’s my pleasure. Thank you very much for having me.
So just give me a little brief overview to you and to Huntsman Corporation for those that may or may not be aware of it.
The business was obviously started by my father. And we actually started as a plastics packaging business. My father said starting in the early 1980s that, getting into the plastic side of the packaging, the plastics manufacturing, that’s where the money was going to be made. I’m not sure that has been proven to be true.
It was Styrofoam clamshells. Am I right about that?
Yes, he originally started with egg cartons. My father originally started when they were first married, selling eggs. He had an uncle that he worked with, gathered up all the eggs from the local farmers around Los Angeles. They bring them in, they had a huge number of these eggs that were breaking on the way. They couldn’t be transported and so forth.
And so they started a joint venture between Chemical DO, and Olson Brothers, which is my father’s uncle’s company, Olson Brothers. Dow and Olson together was, DOLCO. That was the name of the first one of the very first packaging businesses that had Styrofoam egg cartons. From there, the barriers to entry for getting into plastic packaging is not all that high. They originally went into build soup bowls out of plastics. That didn’t sell very well.
So they melded the sides and they made a clam shell out of it. And originally they tried to sell those to Avon. For women, who at the end of the day, would come home, they want to take their earrings off and they want to take all their jewelry off and put it in some place convenient. we’ll put it in this clamshell. That’s what the advertising was. Now that didn’t sell very well either.
That doesn’t surprise me that didn’t sell.
Yeah. And eventually, they went to McDonald’s. They said that was a terrible idea, we’ll never put a burger in that. So they went to Burger King, who put their worst selling ham and cheese sandwich out of Miami into this, and they found that it was able to keep the warmth of the burger. They could pre produce and therefore have a fresher burger. And most importantly, the material that these were made out of was 100% recyclable.
So all the environmental groups loved it. It’s better than that waxy paper that can’t be recycled and so forth. And then McDonald’s came and said, why don’t you bring this to us? And then eventually we went from packaging into the plastics production.
And then acquired many other companies and shifted and transformed.
Yep, we acquired about 50. So I like to think of the arc of the companies as very similar to the arc of the chemical industry. We started in grades of plastics that made clamshell containers for hamburgers and today every Boeing 787 flying will have about 20 tons of Huntsman or Huntsman related materials per plane. So that’s what the chemical industry has done. We’ve gone from cheap packaging all the way to where you cannot build an airplane today without our materials, space travel, EVs, renewable energy, all of this is made possible through our industry.
That’s awesome and it’s so cool. That’s also a great segue.
You’re talking today about the role of chemicals in, maybe energy transition, but in a carbon economy. So I know you said quite vehemently, there is no such thing as carbon neutrality, but we can be smart with our carbon. So why is this so critical?
I’m always just a bit bemused in that most of the policymakers are looking to get away from hydrocarbons. In the chemical industry, think about this, there’s very few products we produce today that we were making 10 years ago. Paper can’t say that, steel can’t say that, most manufacturing processes can’t say that. So what we make today in the chemical industry we replace continuously. Think of something as simple as a bottle of water, now those things are so thin, you get it in your hand and you’re afraid that it’s just going to come apart. That’s how thin it is. We’re saving hydrocarbons, we’re saving money, we have efficiencies. I don’t know of another industry that manufactures, now I know tech and chips, I’m moving that to one side here, but if you could see the sort of manufacturing proficiency in the steel, cement, wood, energy industry that you’ve seen in the chemical industry.
That’s what’s so phenomenal about this industry is we are the solution.
Yeah, absolutely. And as you point out, so many of the products that are being used readily today were not around a decade ago.
And they won’t be here 10 years from now. We’ll have something better.
And all the things that from a consumer perspective, we’ve grown accustomed to, whether it be phones, whether it be these microphones that we’re using today, whatever, are foundationally part of the chemical industry. There’s so many critical components that go into it that, frankly, the majority of the world doesn’t really recognize, but you and I recognize, which is a good thing. So one of the things you’ve talked about is, just some of the challenges and hurdles in getting these new products approved.
There’s so many innovations that are taking place. We know that we need these innovations to support our future economies, whether it be EVs, whether it be airplanes and aerospace and the new technologies that we want. And yet, it seems like it’s really a challenge, maybe we can design them, but to get them approved for use. Can you talk about that a little bit?
The EPA today has 90 days by law, and that was the Frank Lautenberg Act, that they have 90 days. It’s a bipartisan bill that was passed seven or eight years ago. And it was supposed to reform how you regulate chemicals and at the same time how you approve chemicals.
I’ve been a chief executive officer for over 20 years. I rarely have ever heard CEOs complain about the over regulation of our industry as much as the regulations that just don’t make sense. And so when you’re trying to regulate something, and you’ve got 90 days to regulate it. We’ve got some products in the United States right now that have been on that wait list now two or three years. And so I go to China. And I can probably get not only the approval virtually within a matter of weeks, but I probably get some subsidies from the government to build a new process, new technologies. They incentivize you to bring new technologies over there for a whole host of reasons. And we’re sitting over here thinking, if you really want to get beyond forever chemicals, you really want to get beyond perhaps some of the more toxic products that were made decades ago. We’re constantly innovating, but if you don’t have the means and the ability to get that approved quickly and efficiently, and maybe even incentivized to replace those sorts of things, maybe we get the front of the line if you have something that’s going to be replacing yesterday’s state of the art chemistry.
As we look at this, it just seems today that the EPA seems to be more interested in buying electric buses that don’t work for school districts than they are getting the next generation of cleaner, more efficient, more effective chemistries and building blocks approved and into the market.
Yeah, I would agree with that. I recently was at HCPA, The Household and Consumer Products Association meeting. And there was a lot of conversation there about concerns about the new administration coming in and what it means for the EPA opportunities, obviously as we get into a new administration, which we’re just days away from, how do you see this and how do you and other CEOs like yourself influence the opportunity for a more effective EPA. How do you look at these changes that are afoot in Washington?
I’m not sure that there’s a lot of immediate impact on that. I say that because when we build a chemical plant, you’re building a plant that’s going to be around for at least 30 or 40 years. So you’re making an investment today, and you’re really saying where are we going to be 20, 30 years from now? Because that’s when the plant’s probably going to be totally sold out. It’s going to take a couple of years to permit. If you and I decided today that we’re going to go out and build a billion dollar ethylene plant or anything, you’re probably looking at two or three years to be able to permit. To be able to engineer it, another two or three years to be able to build it. So you’re looking at five, six, seven years. With a product like MDI polyurethanes, you’re probably getting closer to a decade. So we’re going to make a billion dollar decision today for a plant that wouldn’t even be running for almost a decade.
And then it’s going to run for another 30 years after that. So I’ve got to be able to look today and say, I’m building this facility. I need to be able to look 40 years down the road.
So how do you handle that? Cause there’s a certain amount of regulatory uncertainty. So there’s always the business uncertainty, in terms of the markets there. Is it the right product, right place, right markets? Is it profitable? But then you add this regulatory risk onto it. Which is a risk. Not just in the US, in Europe, frankly, probably around the globe, different regions, different places. But how do you assess that risk and incorporate that into those decisions?
It’s a real challenge. I wish I could say that there’s an easy answer to this. One of the questions that was asked, you may have heard earlier was, somebody got up and said that free enterprise and democracies were the enemy because they’re both short-term oriented. They’re the enemy of the solutions of what we need to change climate issues and so forth. I take just the opposite approach to that. I think government has been one of the most ruinous. So if I look back at the United States, Huntsman, we’ve invested hundreds of millions of dollars in the production when the Clean Water Act came out in the 1990s. Remember when we had to have MTBE? It was mandated you had to oxygenate your gasoline.
Our industry spent billions and billions of dollars. Exxon, Huntsman, Lyondell. Great companies spent billions of dollars building these facilities, within a few years not only was it no longer mandated, but it wasn’t even permitted because of legal liabilities and so forth. So I can go through line and scripture of the government mandates that have come out, whether it’s on aerosol usage or whether it’s on hydrocarbons, and the amount of money that goes directly from the government into NGOs pockets that are fighting the chemical industry. People like Mayor Bloomberg, who’s spending hundreds of millions of dollars of his own money to get beyond petrochemicals. This is a guy that has multiple private jets, multiple homes around the world. He’s gotta be a huge customer of ours, of all the products and everything. And he’s spending all this money to try to ban the solutions to what we have in society.
I know it’s really ironic. I think it’s a function of the fact that people don’t actually understand, how things are built, where products come from, what it might be right. There’s just this sheer lack of understanding. And maybe it’s a bit of “it’s somebody else’s problem”. Or if I just make a bold statement, it’s all going to magically fix itself. It’s a conundrum for sure.
I have an opportunity to speak, usually every other month or so at a university. And invariably I’ll get a student that will stand up and say, I want you to know I’m opposed to the chemical industry and I’m boycotting your industry. And I’ll look at him and I’ll say, what do you mean you’re boycotting it? I don’t know. How do you do that?
Well I don’t use plastic bags anymore? I’ve got a canvas bag.
Okay. We haven’t produced either the bag or the plastics that go into the bag for decades, but you’re wearing our product. You’re eating our product. Your anxiety medicine you’re probably taking is our product. Your eyeglasses, your computer, your skateboard. You’ve got our clothes, shoes, everything. You have the air conditioning coming in, everything. You said earlier, maybe they’ve just forgotten how things are made. It seems we’re so detached from it now, it used to be the majority of our population was just in agriculture. Now it’s less than 5%, are actually in the production of food that feeds the world.
Or even manufacturing overall, right? Because you think about how efficient our manufacturing processes are. Many people are not in manufacturing anymore. They’re just in consumption.
That’s right. Look how much of our GDP today is around financial services. We’re just basically moving money around. That’s a lot of what tech is. Apple does not build this phone, right? They license it to be built. They have a third party that builds it. But Apple themselves, they don’t build this phone. They own the technology, when you download apps, they make money. It’s a brilliant business model they have, but they’re not making the phones. These companies that we think even manufactured today.
Most of them don’t, and they’ll sub it out to somebody else.
Right. So you talked a little about Europe today, frankly, it’s a European problem. And I know that you’ve addressed the fact that as we look at what’s going on in Europe. Europe seems to be anti manufacturing, whether it’s intentional or it’s the function of misguided policies.
Can you just talk a little bit more about what going on there and how you and Huntsman are approaching business in Europe today?
Unfortunately, we’re approaching it in that we have been cutting costs now for the last couple year, really since about 2021. This is the year before Putin invaded Russia, remember when all those really smart people went to Glasgow at one of the environmental summits during that summer, you started to see a high pressure go over Europe. There’s not enough wind to produce the electricity. They start burning gas. It’s going into the next winter’s storage and electrical prices this summer before the invasion go to historical high prices. Okay.
So I’m not a fan of Vladimir Putin. I despise what he’s done in Ukraine. I’m not saying that has had zero impact. What I’m saying is that much of where we are in Europe is a problem of their own making. And what they have done is simply, they have legislated and set targets with no real achievable way to get there.
Now, aspirational targets are fine, but when you start telling people, this is going to cost you your jobs. You start telling people to shut down your facilities. You start getting to a point where hundreds of thousands of people, look what’s taking place in the automotive sector and so forth today, Europe does not stand a prayer, the chance of competing against the Chinese with EVs.
Is the European situation fixable?
Not at the present time, I’ve talked to government leaders there. I’ve asked them if tomorrow somebody came out and just prove the science incorrect with climate, would you change? Most of them said, no, we wouldn’t. This is a way of life for us. This is where we want to be. This is our reason for existence. Which always just astounds me, because I’m not sure, if it’s not climate driven, why are you doing this?
I do feel bad for all the employees that no longer have jobs because manufacturing sites have shut down. You used the analogy of what it costs to take a shower in Germany and the UK. It’s hard to be a citizen there in some respects.
Look, I love Europe. I love to visit Europe, I lived there for 8 years. I put a bunch of my kids through the European school system and so forth.
But the industrial policies today…
It’s terrible. The energy policies that filter into the industrial policies and what you’re going to see is just this massive relocation of manufacturing. Eventually where the steel, chemical and energy goes, that’s where manufacturing has got to follow. And when I say manufacturing, I go all the way down to where are the Apples, the Googles, the NVIDIAs in Europe today?
They’re not there and the sad thing is with AI coming on you’ve got plenty of smart people in Europe You got a great education system that is there, I’m not criticizing that, but AI is going to exist because of data and power, because of the electrons that generate the data. That’s going to exist because you have competitive raw materials for energy and so you’re gonna see massive data centers, and you’re seeing it today this isn’t a projection, in China, coal. In the Middle East, oil. And in the US, gas. Not nuclear. I hope eventually it gets there.
I hope we get there.
You cannot run a data center on wind. It can be part of your portfolio, yes. But it’s not going to be exclusively on wind. As you think about this, the whole next generation of AI is going to be coming from those three regions. Now, not exclusive to those three regions. There’s going to be isolated incidences, I get it. But the vast majority of AI is going to be coming from China. It’s going to come from the Middle East. And it’s going to be coming from the data centers that are built in there and in the United States.
So it’s not just a question of where you want to produce your steel or where you want to produce your automobiles. It’s also the next generation of information, technology, of medical science, of space and so forth. That’s what Europe is missing out on today. What should be built today is not going to be.
Yeah, and it gets back to your earlier comment on free enterprise.
So free enterprise innovation and rewarding that innovation and the problem solving, the opportunities that we’re seeing and with less regulation or maybe appropriate regulation, we enable that to happen. They’ve got to go hand in glove. That’s what I say, I’m not opposed to regulation.
Yeah, no. Industry needs it.
I’m just opposed to when it becomes non science and when it becomes too emotional or political. And both sides of the aisle do this.
Yeah. Let’s talk a little bit about business transformation, because you referenced the fact that, Huntsman is fundamentally pulling away in many ways from Europe because the business environment makes it difficult. As a company, you’re a dramatically different company today than you were 20 years ago. Growing businesses, selling businesses, changing businesses. What have you found to be really successful in helping to align your organization and align your customers through these transformations that you’ve led the company through?
First of all, you’ve got to come into work every morning and you’ve got to be ready to take your portfolio, and I don’t like to use the phrase blow it up because in the chemical industry that has really bad connotations. But, you’ve got to be ready and willing to take it apart. If Huntsman were the same company today that it was just 10 years ago, we’d be bankrupt. And I don’t say that lightly. Since that time, the last 15 years we have shrunk the size of our company by about 40% and we have a much stronger balance sheet. We have more product innovation that’s taking place today than ever before.
We got out of all the polystyrene and styrenics. We got out of polyethylene, polypropylene. We used to be one of the top five producers in North America on that. All of the olefins, aromatics, TIO2, our intermediate surfactants business, our textile businesses, we’ve sold all of that.
That’s dramatic.
Yeah, we’ve shrunk down and we’ve expanded in aerospace, adhesions and so forth. And we’re going to continue to do that.
Shareholders may ask, are we content with where the portfolio is today? No, of course not. We’ve got to continue to rip it apart. We’ve got to continue to find opportunities now at the bottom of a cycle where we are today. It’s rather difficult to say that, but the time to sell and transform your assets is when you’re just coming out of that trough, which I think we’re just about there. And I think that there’s a lot more transformation we’re gonna look at a lot more like our epoxies, adhesion, aerospace, even in Europe. Those are good businesses today. Energy conservation, and we’re gonna look a lot less at commodity MDI and commodity urethane products and so forth.
Yeah. I think we are in a period of transformation, certainly. And certainly Huntsman is definitely right there. You have to be. Change or be changed.
So let’s talk a little bit about leadership, aside from the fact that your name is on the company. So there’s obviously a family legacy for you and Huntsman Corporation. But that’s not a guarantor of success. Are there some characteristics or things that you really attribute to being a successful leader of a company?
Good question because there’s just so many different attributes depending on the company, the profile and so forth of it. I became president and chief executive back when we were private and our family owned the majority of the company. And my father for all intents and purposes, from an operating point of view, stepped aside about 30 years ago, back when we were still in plastics and polystyrene. You look at the transformation that’s taken place since then. I think it’s really important to look at the macro global trends. One of the reasons I wanted to get out of polyolefins and out of polystyrene, out of these heavy chemicals, I saw that we were competing more against countries then we were against companies. I know Reliance in India is not owned by the government, but try going and building a million barrel a day refinery in India as an outsider. You’re probably not going to get the same sort of incentives that Reliance would get. And look, we do the same thing in this country as well.
Somebody like Japan, a very close ally, wants to come in and buy a steel asset. We tell them, you can’t do that. At least the current president says that. So I think you’ve got to look at the large macro trends. What do you bring that’s unique to your industry? What can you do that private equity can’t do or somebody, a government entity, can’t? And I think the most important thing, particularly for me, and it’s very easy for me, is to hire people, surround yourself with people that are smarter, people that are better than you. I said, that’s an easy thing for me to be able to do. Cause I can always find smarter people and people that have better ideas and so forth.
I think if I’ve done a good job at anything, it’s listening to them, it’s taking in and having a culture where you can say, that’s a good idea. But how about if we looked at it a different way? How about if we did something differently and you’ve got to be able to have an open dialogue. You’ve got to be able have an management team where you can have a debate and you can do that without insulting people and do it outside of an element of fear.
Yeah, it’s great. did you always know that you wanted to be in chemicals? Because, while that’s one of the family businesses, I know that your siblings all are leading different parts of the Huntsman empire, if I can call it that, or in politics or in public life in different ways.
Did you know?
There was a point for probably about 15 years where all of my siblings were in the company together.
And how was that? Am I allowed to ask that?
Yeah. People ask that all the time. I can genuinely say I never had a major disagreement, never had an argument with any of my siblings. We might’ve disagreed on decisions that would be made but we’d always, in private, shut the door, sit down, talk out our differences. And I attribute a lot of that to my father. He put the relationships in the family before anything else. That loyalty and so forth. It’s a public company, it doesn’t make any sense, but if I could have all my siblings, my brothers and sisters coming back into the company, working with them again, I’d do it in a second.
I started in the company as a truck driver and I used to deliver fuels and pick up fuels in refineries. And I was always fascinated with refining. And when I was waiting in line to load up, I got to meet truck drivers, or I got to meet people in the refinery. They’d take me around show you how a cat cracker works and, how all these coking units and alkylation units and so forth worked. And I was just fascinated with all those processes. Started buying some books on engineering and process design, teaching myself, how do you go from crude oil to gasoline to asphalt oil, and then subsequently into chemicals.
When I started in the company, our family had two companies. One of them was a plastics company. The other one was a trucking gas station company. I rose to the point where I was running the gas station trucking side of the business. And I tried to convince my dad, true story, to get out of the chemical business. Our future would be in trucking and gas stations. Especially with 7 Eleven, they were talking about they’d always be going out of business. Circle K, we could buy that, this was back in the 80s. My father said we can only take one of these paths. And I presented what I thought was a very compelling argument as to why we ought to get out of plastics and get into trucking.
We did this on a Thursday or Friday. He came on a Monday and he said, I’m going to go with the plastic side. I was devastated. I thought for sure he’d pick the local trucking. And he said, last night I had one of our neighbors. I’d tell you the name of the neighbor, but he’s still alive. But one of our neighbors called me up and said, he went by one of our convenience stores and bought a box of raisin bran and it was stale. I said, yeah, who goes and buys a perishable item at a grocery store or at a gas station? My father said, Peter, I don’t want to be in a business where my neighbors are calling me over a stale box of Raisin Bran. I don’t want to be in a local business. I want to be in something that’s global and something that’s not in my backyard.
So we sold all the gas stations, trucking and everything. We put that money into chemicals.
And did you know that you were going to stay and do chemicals?
I was really discouraged. I thought this is just devastating. I went and talked to a company called Sinclair, used to be run by Earl Holding. I went and actually met with Earl Holding at the time and he said, are you crazy. Your father’s got this great company. Go work for your father. You’re not part of my family. Cause his family was,running the company.
And my dad, we just bought a polypropylene plant in New Jersey. So I got a job in the New Jersey chemical plant in charge of quality and production, went out and figured out how plastics were made and within a year or so I was just like. This is the future. It’s just terrific. It’s been it’s been a great thing for our family. My father took his estate when he passed away in 2016 and put it into a foundation that virtually most, not all but most, of that money goes into cancer research and mental health. And the second generation runs that board that manages that foundation. And now we’re starting to do likewise with our resources and so forth.
So this industry, not only is it afforded, I think, tens of thousands of people employment within the company and innovation that we’ve done with Huntsman Corporation, but the proceeds and the stock values and so forth have gone to, I hope, the betterment of society, which is really the best dividend I think.
Yeah. I think it is a phenomenal legacy.
Glad to be part of that.
Absolutely. What advice do you have for young people entering the industry that want to be part of its success and its transformation? What advice would you have to a new person saying, should I come join this chemical company and how do I have a great career?
One thing that my father and then subsequently, I did when I was president is when my younger siblings came in, they all went and worked in a facility somewhere. They all went and worked in a chemical plant. All of us have, I was in New Jersey, my brother James was in Beaumont, Texas, my brother David was in Odessa, Texas, my brother Paul was in Australia. I mean they all went and worked in different places and they all understood what it was like to work in a chemical plant, how did it actually work, how did it function and so forth.
It’s one thing to sell chemicals, one thing to look at it as part of your portfolio. It’s quite another thing to understand, how are the molecules built? How do you actually do that? And who are the people that actually do that for you? And can you relate to them? They’re the people that are going to give you the productivity. They’re the people who give you the quality, the innovation, the speed and so forth. They’re the people when a customer runs out, they’ll put a product in the back of their pickup and they’ll run it out there personally because of the pride they have in the company. That’s what differentiates Huntsman from its competitors, are the individual people that work in our company.
Love it Peter. Thank you so much for this, I’ve really enjoyed spending time with you today.
It was a delight, thank you Victoria.
And thanks everyone for listening. Keep listening, keep following, keep sharing, and we will talk with you again soon.
About Peter Huntsman
Mr. Huntsman serves as Chairman of the Board, President, Chief Executive Officer and a director of the Company. He has served as a director since 1994 and the Chairman of the Board since 2018. Prior to his appointment as Chief Executive Officer in 2007, Mr. Huntsman served as President and Chief Operating Officer, positions to which he was first appointed in 1994. Mr. Huntsman joined Huntsman Polypropylene Corporation as a Vice President in 1987 after working for Olympus Oil for four years, later becoming a Senior Vice President and General Manager. Mr. Huntsman has also served as Senior Vice President of Huntsman Chemical Corporation and as Senior Vice President of Huntsman Packaging Corporation, a former subsidiary of our company.